内容来源：https://www.wired.com/story/uncanny-valley-podcast-trump-pivots-ai-regulation-worker-ousted-by-doge-runs-for-office-hantavirus-explained/

内容总结：

Uncanny Valley本周要闻：特朗普政府对AI监管立场现反转迹象

本周，Uncanny Valley团队讨论了一系列引人关注的事件。首先是特朗普政府在AI安全与监管问题上似乎出现立场反转，据报道正考虑签署行政命令，建立由科技高管和政府官员组成的委员会，在AI模型发布前对其进行审查。这一动向与此前政府推崇的“去监管”立场形成鲜明对比，尤其值得关注的是负责此事的人选——白宫幕僚长苏西·威尔斯并非AI领域专家，引发外界质疑。

节目还深入解读了汉坦病毒疫情。一艘从阿根廷出发的南极邮轮上爆发汉坦病毒感染，已有3名乘客死亡。世界卫生组织确认这属于安第斯毒株，该毒株可在人与人之间传播，但专家表示其传播效率远低于新冠或流感，普通公众面临的风险仍然较低。

此外，一名前联邦雇员因拍摄“政府效率部”人员进入工作场所而被解雇，如今她正竞选马里兰州国会众议员席位。她将揭露联邦政府内部真实情况作为竞选纲领，已有超过36名受裁员影响的前政府工作人员投身竞选。

最后，精神航空一名被解雇的员工分享了公司突然关闭时的亲身经历。这家运营34年的廉价航空在上周末宣布停止运营，超过1.7万名员工受到影响。尽管这家航空公司因低价策略常被调侃，但员工强调其在安全方面的出色记录——运营34年来从未发生过致命事故。

中文翻译：

本周《诡异谷》节目中，团队讨论了特朗普政府在人工智能安全与监管政策上似乎出现逆转的惊人报道。我们还探讨了汉坦病毒疫情的真实情况，以及你是否需要为此担忧。此外，我们讲述了一位被埃隆·马斯克所谓的“政府效率部”解雇的前联邦雇员如今竞选公职的故事。同时，一位精神航空被解雇的员工向我们分享了上周末公司停业消息传来时的亲身经历，以及她最怀念这份工作的哪些方面。

本期节目提及的文章：

• 《一名联邦员工因拍摄DOGE被解雇，如今她竞选国会议员》
• 《精神航空倒闭对你的假期意味着什么》

你可以在Bluesky上关注布莱恩·巴雷特（@brbarrett）、佐伊·希弗（@zoeschiffer）和莉亚·费格（@leahfeiger）。写信请寄至[email protected]。

收听方式
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文字记录
注意：此为自动生成文字记录，可能包含错误。

佐伊·希弗：欢迎收听《连线》杂志的《诡异谷》。我是佐伊·希弗，商业与行业总监。

布莱恩·巴雷特：我是布莱恩·巴雷特，执行编辑。

莉亚·费格：我是莉亚·费格，政治与科学总监。

佐伊·希弗：今天节目中，我们将深入探讨近期报道——特朗普政府正考虑发布一项行政命令，建立某种联邦监管机制来监督新的人工智能模型。我们将讨论这一举动是否真的标志着未来对该技术监管的重大转变。

莉亚·费格：另一个令人意外的事件是，我们将谈到一名联邦员工，她今年早些因拍摄DOGE人员进入其工作场所而被解雇，如今正在竞选众议院席位。

布莱恩·巴雷特：我们还将采访一位精神航空员工，她在公司倒闭后被解雇。最后但同样重要的是，我们将讨论你对汉坦病毒应有多担忧。剧透：可能不像莉亚那么担心。

莉亚·费格：我非常担心。

布莱恩·巴雷特：她非常担心。

莉亚·费格：本周不错，各位。

佐伊·希弗：好的。那么，对于人工智能行业来说，这是有趣的一周。周一，我们听到特朗普政府宣布了一项表面上看起来对AI监管政策相当重大的转变。《纽约时报》最初报道称，正在考虑一项行政命令，该命令将组建一个由科技高管和政府官员组成的小组，在AI模型公开发布前对其进行审查。当时报道时，至少对我来说，还不完全清楚他们是否只是能接触到模型并进行评估，还是能决定模型是否可发布。但这似乎与特朗普政府迄今为止对AI行业采取的宽松且刻意缺乏监管的立场形成了相当明显的逆转。

布莱恩·巴雷特：看到AI模型越来越强大，它们似乎遇到了瓶颈，这很有趣。我认为我们谈过很多次的Anthropic对峙是一个例子。我们进入了一个新时代：“等等，实际上这东西可能对我们有用，也可能对我们有毁灭性影响。我们确实需要放下一些自由市场原则，先了解一下情况。” 可能要通过行政命令。我感觉过去这类命令通常都会落实。我觉得这届政府内部信息泄露很多，所以我认为这似乎很可能发生。我不知道。佐伊，企业对此如何看待？

佐伊·希弗：这很有趣，因为就在这些公司——谷歌、微软、xAI、Anthropic、OpenAI——已经表示会向政府提前开放模型的时候发生。所以我认为这非常有意思，尤其是回想不久前，JD·万斯在欧洲对一群监管者说，这届政府在监管这项技术方面将采取与拜登政府截然不同的方法，说白了就是试图不进行监管。

JD·万斯（档案音频）：AI的未来不会靠对安全的杞人忧天来赢得。它要靠建设——从可靠的发电厂到能生产未来芯片的制造设施。

佐伊·希弗：所以，即使是这种转变的可能性也值得我们高度关注。

莉亚·费格：对于这样一个目前极度放松监管、并以此自诩的政府来说，这条消息让我相当震惊。这届政府非常以此为傲。这体现在竞选广告中，也体现在与科技界同僚的内部谈话中。他们说的就是：“我们正在为你们创造一个舒适的经营环境，你们应该感到自在。” 所以这——再次强调，我们不知道这项监管或所谓的“监督”具体会细致到何种程度——但我很惊讶。我很惊讶。我很少有被惊到的时候。这次我被惊到了。

佐伊·希弗：但莉亚，我的问题是：当我们讨论谁将加入这个监督委员会，或者谁在起草这项所谓的法规或行政命令时，大卫·萨克斯已经不再参与其中了，至少不像以前那样正式。我的理解是，迈克尔·克拉齐奥斯和苏西·威尔斯现在接手了他之前的职责。我就想，“抱歉，我不想无礼，”但我想说，“你告诉我苏西·威尔斯是决定‘Mythos’是否危险到不能向公众发布的人？得了吧。”

布莱恩·巴雷特：知名AI专家，苏西·威尔斯。

佐伊·希弗：不。不。不。不。

莉亚·费格：我的一个不成熟的想法是——也许我喜欢这样。也许我喜欢苏西得用她的小电脑，说：“我不懂这个。这看起来挺糟。” 有什么问题吗？

佐伊·希弗：嗯-嗯。

莉亚·费格：好吧。

佐伊·希弗：不。我听到了你的想法，我想说“是也不是”。这就是我对那个想法的处理方式。

莉亚·费格：它还不成熟，我也不确定我是否完全赞同。但是，是的，说我们要有监督是一回事，然后监督者是谁又是另一回事。

布莱恩·巴雷特：嗯，我认为许多传统上头脑冷静、属于特朗普政府圈子的AI专家，在围绕Anthropic和五角大楼的事情上出现了真正的决裂，他们认为这届政府做得太过分了。这对美国AI产业和进步真的有害。所以我认为你不会让那些人参与进来。如果你没有那些人，剩下的人——不管是谁——我认为你得不到那个结果。我觉得你缺少真正了解情况、并且真心为行业和可能被其吞噬的人类谋求长远利益的人。

莉亚·费格：我也想知道这在多大程度上是一种姿态——能够说：“看，我们在做这件事。”因为公众对AI威胁就业、能源价格、隐私、心理健康等等的担忧只增不减，无论从哪个角度看都是如此。这件事现在正大张旗鼓地出现在新闻里。如果特朗普政府能够稍微表示一下：“好好好，我们听到了。别担心。我们有苏西·威尔斯在处理。”

佐伊·希弗：哦，天哪。但让我们回想一下，不久前他们在一项行政命令中说——如果我记错了请纠正我——他们要“去觉醒化”AI。我们应该回顾一下那件事。有什么结果吗？但我当时听到的是，几乎没有任何后续行动。那是发布了一项命令，然后一片寂静，没有AI公司因此受到催促。

布莱恩·巴雷特：但我觉得这也是个很对的问题，因为即使他们还没做什么，我年纪够大还记得——因为那大概是三年前的事——当时共和党的怒火集中在News Feed和Facebook的算法上，他们说：“如果自由派和保守派的‘内容’数量不一样，那就是有偏见”，这根本不是那么回事。我不会惊讶于这个小组——至少其中一部分——会说：“不，你必须确保在训练模型时，使用Breitbart的数据量和《纽约时报》或维基百科一样多。” 我的意思是，谁知道呢？这只是一个可能发布的行政命令的报道，但我不认为那种倾向已经消失了。尽管什么都没发生，但感觉我们很可能仍会迎来一场文化战争浪潮。

佐伊·希弗：是的。我确实给山姆·奥特曼发了短信。我的短信里说我们可以私下聊，但他没回复，所以我现在就告诉你。我说：“我们聊聊。想听听你的想法。” 这个人以前回复很快，很健谈，但哎呀，他这周要么是媒体培训做得好，要么就是官司缠身。所以他至少不回我的短信。

莉亚·费格：说到美国政府，现在还有另一个非常有趣的故事，我作为一个明显深度参与《连线》DOGE报道的人正在密切关注。我们都想知道：“这些联邦员工在被DOGE解雇后怎么样了？那些发声的人后来怎么样了？” 所以我们有一位我们的资深政治撰稿人Makena Kelly上周采访过的人，亚历克西斯·戈德斯坦，消费者金融保护局的前雇员。她在记录下埃隆·马斯克所谓的DOGE成员在接管初期如何似乎在未告知员工、没有任何通知的情况下访问CFPB设备后被停职。戈德斯坦拍摄了他们。她真的是走上前去拍摄他们。现在她用自己的话在接受《民主现在！》采访时回忆了当时发生的事情。

亚历克西斯·戈德斯坦（档案音频）：我像往常一样来上班。把我的小孩送到日托所。那里没有婴儿车停放处，所以我把我的空婴儿车推进了华盛顿特区的CFPB总部。我注意到一些我从没见过的人，他们没有佩戴CFPB要求的胸牌，并且在访问看起来像是CFPB的设备。所以我想走近看看。我想试着调查。我们被一再告知要报告可疑活动，要保护我们持有的美国人民的敏感数据。

莉亚·费格：我的意思是，听到有人将这件事作为亲身经历讲述出来，看着别人进入你的工作场所，把它搞得天翻地覆，感觉非常超现实。亚历克西斯还提到的一件事是，人们有多么信任他们手中的这些技术。这些都是非常非常重要的玩意儿，突然之间落到了并非实际政府雇员的人手里。她还有更多要说的。我们来听听。

亚历克西斯·戈德斯坦（档案音频）：数百万人在他们脆弱的时候信任我们——如果他们被金融公司欺骗，如果他们的抵押贷款出了问题。我们使用的技术术语是个人身份信息，我们接受过非常多关于如何处理它的专门培训。所以我非常担心这些我从未见过的人在那里，似乎拿着CFPB的设备。所以我试着看了看。他们从一个会议室移到另一个会议室，看到我之后，就进入了一个没有窗户的会议室。于是我决定进入那个会议室。

莉亚·费格：戈德斯坦告诉Makena，她曾试图接近这些DOGE成员。他们拒绝告诉她自己的名字。一名保安最终将她带了出去，当天晚些时候她发现自己被停职了。然后今年早些时候，很久以后，她正式被CFPB解雇。但现在剧情反转了，戈德斯坦正在竞选公职。她是美国众议院马里兰州第六国会选区的候选人。她的竞选纲领很大一部分是关于向普通选民揭露联邦政府内部发生的事情以及特朗普政府内部一直在进行的操纵。她说了很多非常有趣的话，坦率地说，她讲述的如何在联邦层面真正对抗DOGE，以及这一切被完全压制和扭转的故事，引人入胜。这对我们来说是一个非常非常有趣的视角。

佐伊·希弗：我只是觉得，当她竞选公职是为了揭露联邦政府内部真实情况，而埃隆·马斯克和所谓的“政府效率部”却号称要揭示真相、发现欺诈浪费和滥用并展示给公众看时，这其中充满了深刻的讽刺。

莉亚·费格：绝对如此。我的意思是，这其中很大一部分是，她发现那些人也随后参与了联邦政府其他许多机构的工作。他们不是孤立的个体。她打交道的是些大人物。

布莱恩·巴雷特：莉亚，我们知道她的信息对选民的影响如何吗？她以“嘿，我亲眼目睹了政府雇员最糟糕的遭遇——当DOGE进来打破我们依赖的系统时”，尤其是CFPB，这个机构被掏空了，而它在生态系统中扮演着非常有价值的角色（或者说曾经扮演）。这完全说得通。人们买账吗？她表现如何？

莉亚·费格：老实说，现在说还为时过早，而且这场竞选非常激烈。马里兰州第六国会选区，竞争激烈，很多人参与其中。不过，从我们在网上看到的情况来看，联邦员工非常喜欢她。很多现任和前任联邦员工都住在这个选区。所以她有机会。

布莱恩·巴雷特：我发现很有趣的是，她也不是唯一一个受DOGE影响而现在竞选公职的前政府雇员。有超过三十人在那次裁员潮中辞职或失业，现在都在竞选公职，试图改变这个系统，祝他们好运，试图从国会而不是从他们的联邦职位上改变系统。

莉亚·费格：是的，绝对如此。你看，戈德斯坦是以民主党人身份竞选。她一直批评民主党采取被动姿态，比如“等我们夺回众议院再说”。所以我非常想知道这种信息在中期选举环境中会有怎样的效果。例如，她说过，继续CFPB的工作是一个优先事项。但要消除这些损害，尤其是对像CFPB这样被如此大规模掏空的机构，她承认需要相当长的时间。我真的会密切关注这件事。我很期待看到她的发展。

布莱恩·巴雷特：在进入休息时间之前，我还要与听众分享另一份第一手证词。这次来自朱利安·理查德森，一名空乘人员，他是受公司倒闭影响的超过17,000名精神航空员工之一。上周末，精神航空在运营34年后宣布停止运营——我对于它存在了这么久感到惊讶——并且在过去两年里两次申请破产后。后者我倒没那么惊讶。尽管如此，在所有的传闻和不确定性中，像朱利安这样的员工还是被打了个措手不及。

朱利安·理查德森（档案音频）：我一大早醒来去健身房，大概四点左右。像大多数人一样，我看了看手机，看到一封凌晨两点左右发来的邮件，是公司发的。我看了看，肯定不是什么好消息。我非常非常惊讶。我说：“伙计，我知道我们很多人心里都有这个念头，但现在它真的成真了。”

布莱恩·巴雷特：如果你想知道的话，像朱利安这样的员工很清楚，精神航空以价格实惠但未必最可靠而闻名。但他说，作为一名员工，他看到了另一面。

朱利安·理查德森（档案音频）：作为一名空乘，你会看到人们登机。你会意识到很多有家庭的人依赖这个品牌，因为它的价格。如果你有三四个都超过两岁的孩子，那意味着你得给每个人买机票。如果机票更便宜，你就能去某个地方旅行。所以当我开始为这家航空公司工作时，我真的看到了这一点。

布莱恩·巴雷特：我有两个孩子，对此深有感触。同时，在很多人关注航空安全的时候，朱利安也特别自豪精神航空保持的安全记录。

朱利安·理查德森（档案音频）：我的意思是，过去到现在，他们已经经营了34年，从未发生过一次致命空难或类似事件。我认为这很了不起，尤其是在一个你的工作每天都面临生命危险的行业里，大多数航空公司在其历史上至少发生过一次。我认为这是件大事。

布莱恩·巴雷特：朱利安和他的前同事们现在不得不重新进入并应对就业市场的不确定性。但令人惊讶的是，至少有一件事他不担心，那就是AI。

朱利安·理查德森（档案音频）：飞机上会发生一些需要真人来处理的事情。我记得疫情期间，那时每个人都必须戴口罩。有些人想戴，有些人不想戴。所以几乎每周都有打斗或类似事件的病毒视频——比如婴儿哭闹，某人心烦意乱，然后对妈妈说了些什么，妈妈回嘴。这在飞机上几乎是每隔一个航班就会遇到的情况。我不知道AI怎么能处理那种情况。

佐伊·希弗：是的，我们不需要一个Grok。

布莱恩·巴雷特：Grok只会说这很糟糕。

佐伊·希弗：Grok去调解妈妈和对她抱怨孩子的人之间的争执。

莉亚·费格：我真的非常同情这些工人，也非常同情所有那些被滞留的乘客。精神航空在很多方面就像是我们喜欢稍微调侃一下的东西——比如你不得已才会坐精神航空，但它也确实能坐，能用，而且没有其他家那么贵。看到它倒闭有点难过，尤其是在我看到美国航空业在萎缩，再看看欧洲，我会想：“你们有那么多廉价航空公司。” 特别是考虑到捷蓝航空和精神航空之间的所有交易来回拉扯最终告吹，看到这一切发生真有点难过。

布莱恩·巴雷特：莉亚，你说的“滞留”，我想澄清一下，这是字面意思。我认为有些员工在精神航空停运时并不在自己所在的城市。所以他们不得不依靠其他航空公司提供机组座或旅行通行证才能回家。幸运的是，这显然是一个非常有互助精神的行业。其他航空公司帮助了他们。其他航空公司正在为精神航空员工提供优先就业面试。但你能想象吗，我现在在伦敦，如果《连线》倒闭了，我得另找办法回家。我是说，我会有办法，但是——

莉亚·费格：不，但这也太离谱了。这太疯狂了。我想起了《我为喜剧狂》的那一集，莉兹·莱蒙说：“哦，是的，这是我的航班。”然后他们说：“对不起，我们现在没有航班了。我们只做爆米花。” 那集很精彩，但现实也是如此。

布莱恩·巴雷特：我认为从消费者层面来看，如果你打算预订夏季机票，赶紧订，因为现在这是供需关系，对吧？整个航空公司没了。这少了很多座位，所以更稀缺了。价格在最糟糕的时候上涨了，对于像我这样正在考虑带着——再说一次——两个孩子计划夏季旅行的人来说，时机糟透了。

佐伊·希弗：休息之后，我们将深入探讨游轮上汉坦病毒爆发的新闻。我们应该担心，还是我们只是在无缘无故地恐慌？我们将揭晓答案。

莉亚·费格：最近几天，越来越多的头条新闻是关于悬挂荷兰国旗的游轮“MV Hondius”号上爆发的汉坦病毒疫情。该游轮一个多月前从阿根廷南端出发，停靠南极洲、圣赫勒拿岛等地。问题开始于一名男子出现发烧、头痛等症状，最终发展成呼吸系统疾病。他在船上死亡，几周后，他的妻子也去世了。她后来也被确认感染了汉坦病毒。截至本周，已有七例确诊病例，船上目前载有147名乘客和船员。为了帮助我们理解到底发生了什么，我们请来了《连线》杂志的特约撰稿人艾米丽·穆林。

艾米丽·穆林：谢谢邀请。

布莱恩·巴雷特：艾米丽，谢谢你来到这里。在我们讨论应该有多担心之前——因为我想让莉亚保持悬念——当我们听到病毒和呼吸系统疾病时，显然我们会有点恐慌，这是条件反射，也是合理的。但在深入探讨它是否会毁掉我们未来几年的生活之前，你能先告诉我们汉坦病毒到底是什么吗？

艾米丽·穆林：这是一种呼吸道病毒，相当罕见。通常通过啮齿动物的粪便和尿液传播。

佐伊·希弗：嗯，这既恶心又可怕。但船上的那对夫妇是最先出现症状的，然后似乎又进一步传播了。所以我想，艾米丽，我们知道它是如何传播以及如何在人与人之间传染的吗？

艾米丽·穆林：好的。截至周三，我们知道有三名乘客死亡——这对荷兰夫妇和一名德国公民。世界卫生组织周三证实，这些死亡是由汉坦病毒的安第斯株引起的。这一点很重要，因为安第斯株可以通过人与人之间的传播扩散。这不是汉坦病毒通常的传播方式。汉坦病毒实际上是一个病毒家族，在世界各地都有发现。就像我之前说的，它们通常由啮齿动物携带。病毒通常通过吸入含有啮齿动物粪便或尿液的气溶胶颗粒传播给人类。在美国，多年来大多数汉坦病毒病例发生在西南部，即新墨西哥州、科罗拉多州、亚利桑那州和加利福尼亚州。华盛顿州偶尔也有病例。至于这对荷兰夫妇，他们最初是如何感染的一种说法是，他们在登船前似乎在阿根廷的乌斯怀亚市观鸟。我今天早上与一位汉坦病毒专家交谈过，他说此前已在当地的啮齿动物中发现了该病毒。他说，只要病毒存在于特定地点的动物体内，就存在对人类构成风险的可能。

莉亚·费格：那么，目前是否正在采取措施控制这次疫情？它是否已经离开了船只？我看到了一些报道。希望你能为我们更详细地解释一下。

艾米丽·穆林：几个国家的当局正在协调这次非常复杂的应对。乘客正在接受症状监测，当然也被要求如果出现任何症状就进行隔离。在症状早期，这看起来和任何其他呼吸道病毒非常相似。你可能会有发烧、肌肉酸痛、疲劳、头晕。但随后疾病会发展成一些相当严重的状况，包括咳嗽、呼吸急促和呼吸困难。截至周三，两名汉坦病毒患者和一名疑似感染者正在从船上撤离，前往欧洲接受治疗。我们还知道，一名从南美旅行返回瑞士家中的男子，他曾乘坐过同一艘游轮，检测结果呈阳性，正在瑞士一家医院接受治疗。该患者的妻子与他同行。她尚未出现任何症状，但作为预防措施正在自我隔离。瑞士公共卫生官员目前正在追踪此人可能接触过的人。

布莱恩·巴雷特：这是我多年来第一次想起接触者追踪这件事，这么久没想起它我感到很开心，因为这是一个非常复杂的过程，是件非常辛苦的工作。艾米丽，鉴于这一切，根据世界卫生组织和其他机构的说法，我们该有多担忧？听起来是谨慎对待，但可能还没到恐慌的时候。不过还是听你的，因为可能只是我想安慰自己。

艾米丽·穆林：不，我认为你说得对。与我交谈过的汉坦病毒专家表示，过去也曾发生过安第斯株的聚集性病例，但没有大规模爆发。这些聚集性病例往往涉及与患者长时间密切接触。这种病毒的传播效率远不如我们熟悉的其他呼吸道病毒，比如新冠或流感。汉坦病毒的症状通常也相当严重。所以，这不像新冠那样——大量人感染了病毒并无症状地传播却浑然不知。这一点至少能让人稍微安心一点，即使另一面是这种疾病相当严重。因此，世界卫生组织表示，对普通公众的风险目前较低，这很可能不是另一个新冠疫情的局面。

布莱恩·巴雷特：莉亚，你感觉怎么样？

莉亚·费格：感觉不太好，各位。我不知道。开玩笑吗？你们感觉怎么样？也许到了该我说“你们现在同意我了吗？”的时候了？

布莱恩·巴雷特：不，我本来还好，但艾米丽说了那个“很可能”，语气挺重的，我突然觉得有点更焦虑了。

莉亚·费格：是的，就是那个“很可能”被吞掉了的感觉。

艾米丽·穆林：那是我自己的评论。世界卫生组织没有包括那个“很可能”。

布莱恩·巴雷特：好吧。要是他们用斜体或者大引号标出来就好了，比如“很‘可能’”没事。

莉亚·费格：我不知道，各位。我觉得，第一，我对它有不同毒株感到着迷。这立刻让我回想起新冠早期那些业余科学家们说：“不，不，不，这完全没问题。” 所以官方宣布说，是的，这是可以在人与人之间传播的毒株，我认为这至少是值得注意的。这点你总得承认吧。

布莱恩·巴雷特：哦，我认为这是对的。我的开放性问题包括：这些人要在船上待多久，直到所有人说“好了，你们可以走了”？还是把他们送回岸上，让他们隔离一段时间？接触者追踪令人担忧，因为，我又开始有既视感了。但我确实认为，艾米丽，你提到的那些事情，即这在传播速度和传播难易程度上与新冠有重要区别（尤其考虑到我们现在已经有机制来做这些接触者追踪），我会继续保持“还不太担心”的状态。

佐伊·希弗：直到我们开始看到那些一夜之间变成流行病学专家的随机科技人士，发很长的推文讨论大流行的可能性，我想我不会恐慌，因为那——

布莱恩·巴雷特：哦，现在有多少人在用Grok查询汉坦病毒？

佐伊·希弗：哦，实际上，还真不少。我今早确实查了一下。Grok的回答非常克制，我得说。我第一次喜欢Grok的回答。Grok不担心。

布莱恩·巴雷特：这就对了。如果Grok都不担心，我也不担心。

艾米丽·穆林：我觉得，即使你计划去游轮度假，今年夏天订了游轮，可能还有其他事情需要担心，比如诺如病毒，甚至我们知道新冠在游轮上传播得相当有效。但我认为汉坦病毒在你的风险列表里排名很低，除非你从已知存在汉坦病毒、最近在动物身上发现的地区出发，就像这次案例一样。

布莱恩·巴雷特：是的，只要别去阿根廷观鸟——

艾米丽·穆林：正是。

布莱恩·巴雷特：——你就没问题。艾米丽，非常感谢你加入我们。这真的非常有帮助。

艾米丽·穆林：谢谢。

佐伊·希弗：这就是今天节目的全部内容。我们将在节目笔记中链接所有讨论到的故事。《诡异谷》由Kaleidoscope Content制作。本集由阿德里安娜·塔皮亚制作。由Macro Sound的阿马尔·拉尔混音。由丹尼尔·罗曼进行事实核查。普兰·班迪是我们的纽约录音室工程师。马克·莱达是我们的旧金山录音室工程师。金伯利·蔡是我们的高级数字制作经理。凯特·奥斯本是我们的执行制作人，凯蒂·德拉蒙德是《连线》杂志的全球编辑总监。

英文来源：

This week on Uncanny Valley, the team discusses the surprising reports of the Trump administration seemingly reversing its stance when it comes to AI safety and regulation. We also look into what exactly is going on with the Hantavirus outbreak, and whether you should be worried. Also, we get into the story of how a former federal employee who was ousted by Elon Musk’s so-called Department of Government Efficiency is now running for office. Plus, a Spirit Airlines laid off employee shares with us how they experienced the company’s shutdown news last weekend and what they’ll miss most about the job.
Articles mentioned in this episode:

• A Federal Worker Was Fired for Filming DOGE. Now She’s Running for Congress
• What the Spirit Airlines Implosion Means for Your Vacation
  You can follow Brian Barrett on Bluesky at @brbarrett, Zoë Schiffer on Bluesky at @zoeschiffer, and Leah Feiger on Bluesky at @leahfeiger. Write to us at [email protected].
  How to Listen
  You can always listen to this week's podcast through the audio player on this page, but if you want to subscribe for free to get every episode, here's how:
  If you're on an iPhone or iPad, open the app called Podcasts, or just tap this link. You can also download an app like Overcast or Pocket Casts and search for “uncanny valley.” We’re on Spotify too.
  Transcript
  Note: This is an automated transcript, which may contain errors.
  Zoë Schiffer: Welcome to WIRED's Uncanny Valley. I'm Zoë Schiffer, director of business and industry.
  Brian Barrett: I'm Brian Barrett, executive editor.
  Leah Feiger: And I'm Leah Feiger, director of politics and science.
  Zoë Schiffer: Today on the show, we're diving into recent reports that the Trump administration is considering an executive order that would establish some sort of federal oversight over new AI models. And we're going to talk about whether this move actually signals a meaningful shift in future regulation of this technology.
  Leah Feiger: In another surprising turn of events, we're also going to get into how a federal worker who was fired earlier this year for filming DOGE operatives entering her workplace is now running for a House seat.
  Brian Barrett: We're also going to check in with a Spirit Airlines worker who was laid off after the company shut down. And last but not least, we'll also talk through just how worried you should be about hantavirus. Spoiler, probably not as concerned as Leah is.
  Leah Feiger: I'm very concerned.
  Brian Barrett: She's very concerned.
  Leah Feiger: A good week, you guys.
  Zoë Schiffer: OK. So it's been an interesting week for the AI industry. On Monday, we heard that the Trump administration announced what, on its face, seems like a pretty big about-face in its approach to AI regulation. The New York Times initially reported that there is an executive order being considered, just at that stage right now, that would create a group of tech executives and government officials who would essentially review AI models before they are released to the public. At the time that this was reported, it wasn't totally clear, at least to me, whether they would just get access to the models and be able to look at them and evaluate them or whether they would be able to say whether a model could be released or not. But it does seem like a pretty significant reversal of the very loose and pointed lack of regulation that the Trump administration has had until now toward the AI industry.
  Brian Barrett: It's been really interesting to see how as AI models get more powerful, they've sort of hit their limit. I think the Anthropic showdown we've talked about a lot. We're in a new era of, "Oh wait, actually this could be useful to us or terrible for us. We actually do need to set aside some of those free market principles and get a heads-up here." Maybe going to be executive order. I feel like in the past, those have typically panned out to become the thing. I feel like this administration is pretty leaky. So I think this seems likely to happen. I don't know. Zoë, how are companies taking this?
  Zoë Schiffer: It's interesting because it's happening right as a bunch of these companies, Google, Microsoft, xAI, Anthropic, OpenAI already said that they would give the government early access to their models. And so I mean, I think it's quite interesting, particularly when we think back to JD Vance not that long ago, telling a group of regulators in Europe that the administration was going to take a very different approach to the Biden administration in terms of regulating this technology and really trying to frankly not regulate it.
  JD Vance, archival audio: The AI future is not going to be won by hand-wringing about safety. It will be won by building, from reliable power plants to the manufacturing facilities that can produce the chips of the future.
  Zoë Schiffer: So even the possibility that this could change, I think is worth paying a lot of attention to.
  Leah Feiger: I was pretty shocked by this news for such a deregulatory focused government at the moment. And the administration very much prides itself on that. That is part of campaign ads. That's part of internal conversations with their tech cohort. It's really, we're making this a comfortable place for you to do business and you should feel comfortable here. So this is, again, we don't know exactly how detailed this regulation or, quote-unquote, "oversight" is actually going to look, but I was surprised. I was surprised. I'm rarely surprised. I was surprised.
  Zoë Schiffer: But this is my question for you. Leah, when we're talking about who is going to be part of this oversight committee or who is even drafting this supposed regulation or executive order, David Sacks is no longer in the mix, at least in the kind of official way that he was. My read was that it was Michael Kratsios and Susie Wiles who are now managing his former portfolio. I'm like, "Sorry, I don't want to be rude," but I'm like, "You're telling me Susie Wiles is the person deciding whether Mythos is too dangerous to release to the public? Come on."
  Brian Barrett: Known AI expert, Susie Wiles.
  Zoë Schiffer: No. No. No. No.
  Leah Feiger: Here's my bad take—is like, maybe I like that. Maybe I like the idea of Susie having to be on her little computer going, "I don't get this. This seems bad." Anything there?
  Zoë Schiffer: Mm-mm.
  Leah Feiger: OK.
  Zoë Schiffer: No. I hear your take and I want to yes and no. Yes and no is what I do with that.
  Leah Feiger: It's half-baked and I'm not sure I'm actually fully committed to it. But yeah, it's one thing to say we're going to have oversight and then who are the overseers, I suppose.
  Brian Barrett: Well, and I think so many people who traditionally have cooler heads who are in the Trump administration sphere, who are AI experts, I think there was a real break around the Anthropic Pentagon stuff where they said this administration has gone way too far. This is really hurtful to American AI industry and progress. So I think you're not going to have those people in the mix. And if you don't have those people, the people who are left, I think you're not going to have that. No matter who it is, I think you're running short on people who actually know a lot about what's going on and actually have long-term best interests of both the industry and human people who might be subsumed by it at heart.
  Leah Feiger: I also wonder how much of this is a play is being able to say, "Look, we are doing this." Because there is just increasing public concern, no matter which way you slice it, about AI threatening jobs, energy prices, privacy, mental health, what have you. This is in the news right now in a very big way. And if the Trump administration is able to even slightly go, "OK, OK, OK, we hear you. Don't worry. We've got Susie Wiles on the case."
  Zoë Schiffer: Oh my God. But let's think back to when they said not too long ago in an executive order, correct me if I'm wrong, that they were going to de-woke AI. And we should look back at that. Did anything come from it? But what I had heard at the time was nary a reach-out. It was an order that came out and then utter silence, no AI companies got a prod about it.
  Brian Barrett: I think that's the right question though too, because even though they haven't done anything yet, I am old enough to remember, because it was three years ago or whatever, when GOP ire was focused on News Feeds and Facebook's algorithms and it said, "Well, if you don't have the same amount of liberal and conservative 'content,' then it's biased, which is not how anything works." I wouldn't be surprised if this panel, at least some element of it was, "No, you have to make sure that you train it on Breitbart as much as you're training on the New York Times or Wikipedia or whatever." I mean, again, who knows? It's a report of an executive order that might happen, but I don't know that that's gone away. Even though nothing's happened yet, it still feels like a very real possibility that that is still a wave of culture war that we're headed for.
  Zoë Schiffer: Yeah. I did text Sam Altman about it. My text did say we can talk off the record, but since he didn't respond, I'm going to tell you about it right now, which is that I said, "We should chat. Curious to hear what you think." That man used to be really responsive and chatty, but boy, is he either very media trained or very much in court this week. So he is not answering his texts, at least from me.
  Leah Feiger: So talking about the US government, there's another really interesting story that's happening right now that I am watching so, so closely as someone who obviously was a big part of WIRED's DOGE coverage. And we all went, "What happened to these federal employees after they were DOGE'd? What happened to the people who spoke out?" So we have one person that Makena Kelly, our senior politics writer, spoke with last week, Alexis Goldstein, a former employee from the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, who was put on leave after she recorded how Elon Musk's so called DOGE members were actually seemingly accessing equipment at the CFPB very early on in their takeover without telling employees, without any sort of notice. So Goldstein filmed them. She quite literally went up to them and filmed them. Here she is now recalling exactly what happened in her own words in an interview with Democracy Now!
  Alexis Goldstein, archival audio: I came in like I normally do. I drop off my toddler at daycare. There isn't stroller parking, so I wheel in my stroller, my empty stroller to the CFPB headquarters in Washington, D.C. And I noticed a number of people who I had never seen before who were not wearing the required CFPB badges and they were accessing what appeared to be CFPB equipment. So I wanted to take a closer look. I wanted to try and investigate. We are told over and over again that we are supposed to report suspicious activities, that we are supposed to defend the sensitive data that we hold of American people.
  Leah Feiger: I mean, it's so surreal to even hear someone speaking about this as an experience, to watch people go into your place of work and just really turn it upside down. And one of the things that Alexis also said is just how much people trust them with this technology. These are very, very important bits and bobs that were all of a sudden in the hands of people that weren't actually government employees. She has a little bit more to say. Let's listen up.
  Alexis Goldstein, archival audio: Millions of people trust us with their vulnerable moments if they're scammed by their financial company, if they're having trouble with their mortgage. The technical term we use for it is personally identifying information and we have a lot of very specific training about how to handle it. And so I was very concerned that the people that I had never seen before were there, appeared to have CFPB equipment. So I tried to take a look. They moved from one conference room to the other, when they saw me, into a conference room that didn't have a window. And so I decided to go into that conference room.
  Leah Feiger: Goldstein told Makena that she had tried to approach these DOGE members. They refused to share their names with her. A security guard eventually escorted her out and later that day she found out she was being put on administrative leave. Then earlier this year, a long time after, she was officially fired from the CFPB. The plot twist now though is that Goldstein is running for office. She's a candidate in a race for the US House of Representatives in Maryland's 6th Congressional District. And a lot of her platform is about really exposing what happens in the federal government and the machinations that have been going on in the Trump administration to the common voter. She had a lot of really interesting things to say, and frankly, her story of what it looked like to really confront DOGE in a federal way and have that be entirely shut down and turned around was fascinating. This was a really, really interesting look for us.
  Zoë Schiffer: I just think there's a lot of deep irony to the fact that she's running on exposing what's really happening in the federal government when Elon Musk and the so called Department of Government Efficiency were all about supposedly shining light on what was really going on and finding fraud, waste, and abuse and showing the general public what that looked like.
  Leah Feiger: Absolutely. I mean, that's so much of this is that these individuals that she also found went on to be part of also so many other agencies throughout the federal government. These weren't like one-off folks. She was interacting with some of the big leagues.
  Brian Barrett: Leah, how is her message resonating, do we know, with voters? It makes total sense she would run on this platform of like, "Hey, I've seen the worst of what happens when you are a government employee and DOGE comes in and breaks the systems that we rely on," especially CFPB, which got gutted and which plays a very valuable role or did in this ecosystem. Are people buying it? Is she doing well?"
  Leah Feiger: Honestly, it's hard to say because it's a little bit early and it's a very, very crowded race. The 6th Congressional District in Maryland, crowded, lots of folks in there. From what we've been seeing online though, federal workers love her. And a lot of federal workers, both current and former, live in this district. So she has a shot.
  Brian Barrett: I found it fascinating, she's also not the only former government worker who was affected by DOGE to be running for office now. There are more than three dozen people who quit or lost their jobs in the wake of those cuts who are out there running for office now, trying to change the system, and good luck to them, trying to change the system from Congress instead of from their federal purchase.
  Leah Feiger: Yeah, absolutely. And look, Goldstein, she's running as a Dem. She's been very critical of how Democrats have taken a passive approach to like, "We'll get in there once we take back the House." And so I'm very interested to see how that messaging plays in the midterm environment as well. She's said, for example, that it's a priority to continue the CFPB's work. And it's going to take though quite some time, which she recognizes, to undo a lot of these damages, especially when it comes to agencies like the CFPB that were just so monumentally gutted. I'm really going to be following this one closely. I'm excited to see where she goes.
  Brian Barrett: Before we go to break, I have one more firsthand testimony to share with listeners. This one comes from Julian Richardson, who's a flight attendant, one of the more than 17,000 Spirit Airlines members who were affected by the company shutdown. Last weekend, Spirit announced it was ceasing operations after 34 years, which I was shocked it had been around that long, and after filing for bankruptcy twice in the last two years. That I was less shocked by. Still, among all the rumors and the uncertainty, workers like Julian were caught off guard.
  Julian Richardson, archival audio: I woke up early in the morning to go to the gym, like around 4:00-ish. And like most people do, I check my phone and I saw an email that came in around 2:00 AM and it was from the company. So I looked over it and it definitely wasn't good news. And I was very, very surprised. I was like, "Man, I know this was in the back of a lot of our minds, but it's actually real now."
  Brian Barrett: Workers like Julian were well aware, in case you were wondering, that Spirit had a reputation of being budget friendly, but not always the most reliable. But he also said that as an employee, he saw a different side of that.
  Julian Richardson, archival audio: As a flight attendant, you see people come on flights. You realize a lot of people with families, they depend on that particular brand because of their prices. If you have like three or four kids all over the age of two, that means you have to buy plane tickets for everybody. And if the plane tickets are cheaper, it helps you to be able to travel somewhere. So I really saw that when I started to work for the airline.
  Brian Barrett: As I have two kids, I feel that deeply. And also at a time when air safety is on a lot of people's minds, Julian also was particularly proud of the safety record that Spirit maintained.
  Julian Richardson, archival audio: I mean, over the past, they've been in business now 34 years, they never had any fatal crash or anything like that. And I think that's huge, especially in an industry where you kind of have a job where your life is at risk every single day, where most of these airlines, they've had at least one within their lifetime. I think that's a big deal.
  Brian Barrett: Julian and his former colleagues are now having to reenter and navigate the uncertainty of the job market. But one thing he is at least not worried about, surprisingly enough, AI.
  Julian Richardson, archival audio: There are things that happen on a plane there where you need an actual person. I can remember during Covid, that was the time when everyone had to wear a mask. Some people wanted to wear it, some people didn't want to wear it. So almost every week, there's a viral video of fights or something happening where maybe a baby's crying and this person's upset because the baby's crying. And then they say something to the mom, then the mom says something back. This is almost like a every other flight scenario on the airplanes. I don't know how AI would be able to help that situation.
  Zoë Schiffer: Yeah, we don't need a Grok.
  Brian Barrett: Grok would just say that it's sick.
  Zoë Schiffer: Grok mitigating the fight between the mom and the person who's yelling at her about her baby.
  Leah Feiger: I really, really feel for these workers and I really, really feel for all of these customers that were stranded. Spirit in so many ways, like something that we love to make fun of just a little bit, like you take Spirit when you have to, but also it was actually available and it worked and it wasn't nearly as expensive as anyone else. It's kind of sad, especially when I look at the shrinking airline industry in the US, when I look over at Europe and I'm like, "You guys have so many low cost carriers." And especially with all of the deals, everything back and forth between JetBlue and Spirit that got squashed, it was just a little bit sad to see that happen.
  Brian Barrett: And Leah, when you say stranded, I want to be clear, that's literal. I think some of these employees, they were not at their home cities when Spirit shut down. So they had to rely on other airlines offering them a jump seat or a travel pass to get home. Fortunately, it's apparently a very communal industry. Other airlines helped them out. Other airlines are offering preferential employment interviews to Spirit Airline employees. But can you imagine, I'm in London right now and if WIRED shut down and I had to find another way home. I mean, I'd be OK, but—
  Leah Feiger: No, but it would also just be ridiculous. This is wild. I think of that 30 Rock episode when Liz Lemon is like, "Oh yeah, this is my flight." And they're like, "Sorry, we're out of flights now. We just make popcorn," which was incredible to see, but that's so real.
  Brian Barrett: I think from a consumer level, if you were going to book tickets for the summer, do it soon because now it's a supply and demand thing, right? A whole airline is gone. That's a lot of seats that aren't there, so there's more scarcity. Prices are going up basically at the worst possible time for people like myself who are thinking about planning some time for summer travel with, again, two kids.
  Zoë Schiffer: Coming up after the break, we'll be getting into the news of the hantavirus outbreak on a cruise ship. Should we be concerned or are we panicking for no reason? We'll find out.
  Leah Feiger: So in recent days, there have been more and more headlines of a hantavirus outbreak happening on the MV Hondius, a Dutch-flagged cruise ship. The cruise departed from the south end of Argentina over a month ago, making stops in Antarctica, the island of Saint Helena, among other stops. The trouble started when a man started showing symptoms like a fever, a headache, and eventually this became a respiratory illness. He died on board and a few weeks later, his wife did as well. She was later confirmed to have the hantavirus too. As of this week, seven cases have now been confirmed and the ship is currently carrying 147 passengers and crew. To help us understand what on earth is going on, we are joined by WIRED staff writer, Emily Mullin.
  Emily Mullin: Thanks for having me.
  Brian Barrett: Emily, thank you for being here. Before we get into how worried we should be, because I want to keep Leah in suspense, when we hear virus and respiratory illness, obviously we are a little panicked, conditioned to be, rightly so. But can you just tell us a little more about what hantavirus actually is before we get into the nitty-gritty of whether it's going to ruin the next several years of our lives?
  Emily Mullin: So this is a respiratory virus and it's quite rare. It's usually spread through the droppings and urine of rodents.
  Zoë Schiffer: Well, that's disgusting and terrifying. But the couple on the ship were the first ones to show symptoms and then it seems like it's spread out further. So I guess, Emily, do we know how it spreads and how it gets transmitted between people?
  Emily Mullin: Right. So as of Wednesday, we know that three passengers have died, this Dutch couple and a German national. The World Health Organization on Wednesday confirmed that these deaths occurred due to the Andes strain of hantavirus. And this is significant because the Andes strain can spread through human to human transmission. This is not the usual way in which hantavirus spreads. So hantaviruses are actually a family of viruses and they're found all over the world. They're typically carried by rodents, as I said before. The virus is spread to humans usually when people breathe in air and dust particles that contain rodent droppings or urine. And here in the US, most of the hantavirus cases over the years have been in the Southwest, so New Mexico, Colorado, Arizona, and California. And there are some occasional cases in the state of Washington as well. In the case of the Dutch couple, one theory as to how they were initially infected is that they were apparently birdwatching in the city of Ushuaia in Argentina before boarding the ship. I spoke with a hantavirus expert this morning who said the virus has previously been found in rodents there. And he said all it really takes is the virus to be present in animals in a particular location for there to be a risk for humans.
  Leah Feiger: So are there any steps being taken right now to have this outbreak contained? Has it already left the ship? I've been seeing some reporting. I'd love for you to spell that out a little bit more for us.
  Emily Mullin: So authorities from several countries are coordinating this very complicated response right now. Passengers are being monitored for symptoms and of course asked to isolate if they develop any symptoms. And in the early days of these symptoms, this looks like really any other respiratory virus. So you can have fever, muscle aches, fatigue, dizziness. But then the disease progresses to some pretty serious stuff, which includes coughing, shortness of breath, and difficulty breathing. So as of Wednesday, two patients with hantavirus and one suspected of being infected are being evacuated from the ship and are on their way to Europe for treatment. We also know that a man who returned to his home in Switzerland from a trip to South America who traveled on the same cruise ship, he has tested positive for the virus and is receiving treatment in a hospital in Switzerland. The patient's wife did travel with him on the trip. She has not yet shown any symptoms, but she is self-isolating as a precaution. And so now, Swiss public health officials are working to trace people that this person might have come into contact with.
  Brian Barrett: This is the first time I've thought about contact tracing in many years, and I was so happy not thinking about it for so long, because it is such a complicated process and something that is really hard work to do. Emily, given all of that, what is the level of concern here, given what the World Health Organization has said and other organizations? It sounds like cautious about it, but maybe not freak out time yet, but I defer to you because maybe that's just me trying to make myself feel better.
  Emily Mullin: No, I think you're right. The hantavirus expert I spoke with said there have been past clusters of the Andes strain before, but not big outbreaks. And these clusters have tended to involve prolonged close contact with people suffering from the disease. This is a virus that does not spread nearly as efficiently as other respiratory viruses that we're used to like Covid or flu, for instance. Hantavirus symptoms are also typically pretty severe. So this is not a virus, again, like Covid where lots of people are going around infected with the disease, spreading it asymptomatically without knowing about it. So that's at least a little bit of comfort, even though the flip side of that is that the disease is quite severe. So the World Health Organization says the risk to the general public is currently low, and this is probably not another Covid situation.
  Brian Barrett: Leah, how we feeling?
  Leah Feiger: Not good, you guys. I don't know. Are you kidding? How are you feeling? Maybe this is my moment to go, "Are you with me yet?"
  Brian Barrett: No, I was good, but then Emily hit that probably pretty hard in a way that I suddenly felt a little more anxious.
  Leah Feiger: Yeah, it was the swallowing of the probably.
  Emily Mullin: That was me editorializing. The World Health Organization did not include the probably.
  Brian Barrett: OK. What if they had it just in italics or big quotation marks? Like it's "probably" fine.
  Leah Feiger: I don't know, guys. I think, one, I'm fascinated that there's different strains of this. And it brought me back so early on to the armchair scientists in early Covid who were like, "No, no, no, this is totally fine." So for there to officially be announced, yes, this is the strain that can get passed between humans, I think is notable at the very least. Got to give me that.
  Brian Barrett: Oh, I think that's true. And I think my open questions are, how long do these people have to stay on this ship before everyone says, "OK, you can go now," or do they send them back to shore and just have them isolate for a certain amount of time? The contact tracing is concerning because again, I'm having flashbacks. But I do think the things that, Emily, that you said about how this is different from Covid in important ways in terms of how quickly it can spread, how easily it can spread, especially now that we have the mechanisms in place to do these contact tracing things, I'm going to remain on my not too worried yet.
  Zoë Schiffer: Until we start to see the random tech people who are becoming expert epidemiologists overnight and doing really long tweet threads about the likelihood of a pandemic, I think I'm not going to panic because that was—
  Brian Barrett: Oh, how many people are asking Grok about hantavirus right now?
  Zoë Schiffer: Oh, actually, no, a fair amount. I did do a little search this morning. And Grok was very measured, I have to say. First time I've liked a Grok response. Grok is not worried.
  Brian Barrett: That's it. If Grok's not worried, I'm not worried.
  Emily Mullin: I think even if you are planning on taking a vacation on a cruise ship, if you've got a cruise booked for this summer, I think there are probably other things to worry about like norovirus, even Covid we know has been shown to spread pretty effectively on cruise ships. But I think hantavirus is pretty low on your list of risks unless you're departing from a part of the world where hantavirus is known to be found and recently seen in animals like in this case.
  Brian Barrett: Yeah, just don't go bird watching in Argentina—
  Emily Mullin: Exactly.
  Brian Barrett: —and you're in good shape. Emily, thank you so much for joining us. This was really, really helpful.
  Emily Mullin: Thank you.
  Zoë Schiffer: That's our show for today. We'll link to all the stories we spoke about in the show notes. Uncanny Valley is produced by Kaleidoscope Content. Adriana Tapia produced this episode. It was mixed by Amar Lal at Macro Sound. It was fact checked by Daniel Roman. Pran Bandi is our New York Studio engineer. Marc Leyda is our San Francisco studio engineer. Kimberly Chua is our senior digital production manager. Kate Osborn is our executive producer and Katie Drummond is WIRED's global editorial director.